(Don't bother looking for Freevote online... it doesn't exist anymore.)
Freevote.com was, as Brad Fitzpatrick describes it, "my first web project back in like 1998 . . . where I learned so much about Perl, databases, users, communities, etc."
Freevote basically allowed teens to create online polls, which they could link their friends to, or link to from their websites. It really didn't have much of a community, but it did grow pretty well, and was already fairly established before Brad created LiveJournal.
Unlike LJ, freevote was really not a collaborative effort, and didn't have a strong community of users trying to look after its best interests... which probably goes a long way to explain why Brad first put ads on that site. That said, he was forced to use the ad-supplying vendors of the time, which didn't pay him as much money (or as high a percentage of the profits) as he would've liked.
This goes a long way to explain why, in/around Fall 2000, just as I was first getting involved in the operations of LiveJournal, Brad was interested in selling both LiveJournal and FreeVote to a dotcom. It also explains why Brad put banner ads on all free LiveJournal accounts at approximately the same time.
In late 2000, the dotcom collapse had already started, but it had temporarily stabilized, it appeared. At that time, Brad was approached by a dotcom whose business model was to buy up a ton of smaller sites, slap ads (or additional ads) all over them, cut costs by effectively axeing support and development, and call them part of "the ________ network" of sites.
Back then, it didn't seem to matter to most people that such businesses had a deeply flawed business model and little or no chance of becoming profitable. Profitablility was arguably never the intent of such businesses, as opposed to making unjustified salaries and building up their reputations, at the expense of overzealous dotcom investors, in the hope of the big "flip" -- selling the company to a bigger player for a ton of cash and stock options that were actually worth something.
Brad, upon seeing the offer he was given -- a mix of bucks, stock, and commissions -- almost immediately decided to sell the dotcom FreeVote.com. He almost sold the company LiveJournal as well, as he simply was tired of running it. Fortunately, a handful of LiveJournal's users/helpers, including myself, gave him feedback indicating our concern with the proposed sale, basically letting him know that LiveJournal's potential was much greater than that of freevote, and that both he and LiveJournal would be much better off in the long run if he didn't sell.
I also did some research on the stats, showing that Brad's addition of banner ads to LiveJournal was harming the site's growth by about 30%. (Why have a journal with banner ads when there were better alternatives, after all?)
So, Brad settled for selling FreeVote (and its community...) instead, and took the banner ads off of LiveJournal. He even promised the site's users to never use banner ads ever again. Instead, the goal would be to appeal to LiveJournal's users, and seek donations to expand the site and pay for the bandwidth. It was also generally decided that LiveJournal would move towards open sourcing its code, and seeking volunteers and coders to help improve the site and spread the work around.
Six months or so later, the dotcom that bought Freevote started defaulting on its commission payments to Brad and to several others who they bought their sites from. Many of the developers for these were pretty well-known in the webdesign world, and soon there were angry forum posts, etc. about how the dotcom was screwing over site developers by not honoring their contracts. Despite this, the dotcom in question kept trying to acquire new sites, offering up large stacks of worthless stock options in an attempt to get ahold of additional ad revenue, in the hope of postponing the inevitable. Like some kind of bad -- yet entirely legal -- pyramid scheme, the dotcom went out of business soon after.
Several months later, after more months of additional neglect, Freevote reverted back to Brad's control. Brad almost immediately gave it to a friend of his... gave pretty much being the operative word, as the site wasn't worth much anymore, its formerly active "community" having fled due to chronic neglect and one-too-many "punch the monkey" ad.
In Oct. 2003, Brad mentioned that freevote was dead on his weblog... and on Jan. 2005, Brad created a little-known, anonymous blog called i-hate.blogs.com, which is hosted by SixApart. (I presume he was using the blog to test out SixApart's service.) One of the very few posts Brad made on i-hate.blogs mentions that FreeVote was gone entirely, and had started forwarding to blogging.com. It has since become entirely inactive.
So, that brings us up to the present day, and this massive petition against the dumbing-down of LiveJournal, which is well on its way to over 5,000 signatures, as well as an active community of users at
So, LiveJournal has been sold out, is in the process of being bannered to high hell, support is suffering badly (I've had several people lately asking me how to directly get in touch with LiveJournal's staff, because their support and abuse departments are not responding to them) and now SixApart appears to be ignoring the site's community too.
It makes you wonder whether LiveJournal's fate will really be all that different from that of Brad's other baby, FreeVote... and whether things like permanent accounts are really all that permanent, despite the best intentions of the many people who did their best to help make LiveJournal a success, while keeping the faith with the users.
UPDATE: The essential argument being made by the petition is that LiveJournal is being "dumbed down" to market it towards teenagers, and that SixApart will soon try to move LiveJournal's more "serious" users over to Vox.
...but are LiveJournal users really all that young that they need the site dumbed down for them?!
If you add up LiveJournal's own publically-listed stats, it shows that there are considerably more LiveJournal users aged 20 or older than there are who are aged 19 and younger. LiveJournal's public stats are even biased against older users, as they do not list the thousands of LiveJournal users aged 55 and above, who really rock the bell curve.
By my calculations, the average age of a LiveJournal user is approximately 24 years of age... possibly older. Infact, LiveJournal's userbase tends to get a little older each and every year. In addition, LiveJournal's older users tend to have a higher percentage of active accounts, tend to post more often, and are much more likely to own paid or permanent accounts.
So perhaps it's time for SixApart to stop marginalizing its users, forcing unwanted spam and marketing info on them, and basically treating them like kids?
UPDATE:
Turns out that this isn't the first time that SixApart referred to LiveJournal users as teenagers.
In an interview with CBS News last year, SixApart co-founder Mena Trott said the following, in an exact quote:
"Yeah. I mean, it's uh... on LiveJournal it's about 70% are teenage girls".
The video of this is available here, on the righthand side of the page.
So, are 70% of LiveJournal users really teenage girls? No. That's simply not a true statement. About 67% of LiveJournal's users are women, and their ages vary considerably.
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Links to the code and to the 3rd party client tools have been buried recently, though you can find the links if you dig deeply enough into the site. (Good luck, new users!)
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Wow
Dude I was just thinking that this was a slippery slope and that I had better create some real world equivalent of these relationships quick or I could totally count on losing you all soon.Sad this.
M
June 21 2006, 01:15:24 UTC 5 years ago
Which reminds me... I don't remember any kind of promises being made when I sent in my perm account check. I should have paid closer attention.
June 21 2006, 01:36:25 UTC 5 years ago
That said, when you infantilize the site, and try to attract the older users -- the ones who pay most of the money which supports the site's existence -- over to a new service, you have to wonder about LiveJournal's longterm solvency.
Basically, Six Apart is a venture capital-supported entity which bought LJ for the users and for the money it was making (It was already a profitable service, unlike TypePad, MovableType, etc.)
Much of the revenue from LJ's paid members is primarily being used to pay the salaries of way too many 6A employees, most of whom don't even work on the site. It's also being used to develop a service which is more-or-less designed to put LJ out of business.
Sadly, there's no talk of simply rolling Vox's new & improved features into LiveJournal.
The idea seems to be that they'll get us either to pay more for Vox, to pay again (even if we already have a permanent account), or to accept banner ads.
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June 21 2006, 02:16:47 UTC 5 years ago
As Adam Smith once said in reply to a student who believed that surrender at Yorktown would be the ruin of England, "Young man, there's a lot of ruin in a nation."
One can only hope that there's a decent amount of ruin in an online community, too.
June 21 2006, 02:29:08 UTC 5 years ago
Thanks for this (sad) info.
July 16 2008, 04:44:09 UTC 3 years ago
June 21 2006, 03:08:52 UTC 5 years ago
Now, I haven't been there in a while, so haven't seen this change until now. It appears to me that all the options are retained, but they are separated into a more refined hierarchy as opposed to the huge list which was always annoying to me.
So I hope the next issues that are brought up aren't something like this, because I think the interface improvements have been a good thing.
That said I am weary of the future (not pessimistic yet)... I never liked Meena, for some reason, she always seemed so ... I dunno. I guess corporate is the issue. Once MT was made pay-to-play I stopped my MT blog (I believe that is when I read Meena's reply to complaints, and really disliked her attitude) If that's the current attitude, then I see not much hope.
I do think their Vox idea is interesting, but I always saw it as more of a "family" blog, a way to stay in touch with close family/friends, and not the big community thing LJ is.
It's sorta the step between LJ and a regular Blog. Am I wrong?
I dislike the idea of paying for it, and I REALLY dislike the closing of new code for LJ, I hadn't been made aware of this fact. That's really disheartening.
June 21 2006, 05:04:47 UTC 5 years ago
From my point of view, LJ really went astray when it started making decisions of what was going to be accepted into the codebase based on LiveJournal.com's bottom line, as opposed to based on what would best serve the code base.
One of the very first ideas I had for the site was to make the barriers between LJ-code sites transparent -- I could add you as a friend on another LJ-code site, and comment on your entries directly within my friends list. LiveJournal even promised this feature in the past, to be powered by ATOM syndication, but they never delivered.
SixApart owns MovableType, owns TypePad, and owns LJ. The most obvious thing in the world would be to come up with some kind of standard for truely tying these services together in a meaningful way, but that is the last thing they'll want to do, I suspect, unless Google/Blogger and some other service offers this kind of feature first.
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June 21 2006, 05:32:58 UTC 5 years ago
Users who contributed code, styles, and third-party tools to what they thought was a free, benevolent piece of software were quickly disillusioned.
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June 21 2006, 05:43:23 UTC 5 years ago
And I did some caculations of my own, after I read your post. When I looked at the raw info, the statistics do have very minor breaks users aged 45 and 46. The curve doesn't start jumping up and down (by a few hundred users) at 75. But there's no dramatic change until the users is at 105 and it goes up 2,615 and stays up for those 106, then drops back down again.
And of course there's more users over age 20. About 262,980 so far. That's mostly because of the large amount of users in their early twenty, as only 347,830 users report their age over 30.
Also, by an extremely unforunate circumstance 1,978,611 users reporting their age as 5 or 6, that the average age of their users is actually in their teen years.
OF course, I don't want any of this dumbing down shitick either. LJ is perfectly easy to use as it is even when you're 12. And Six Apart and/or LJ needs to stop shooting themselves in their foot right now.
June 21 2006, 06:05:44 UTC 5 years ago
Indeed, but when you're looking at average age, well... it's worth pointing out that if you have ten 15-year-olds and only one 61-year-old, the average age of those 11 people is 20.
I have several friends whose parents and even grandparents have created LiveJournals. There are plenty of thirty and fortysomething members of the military who are using LiveJournal as a way of staying in touch with their families during long deployments overseas. Likewise, it's also quite common for Russian users of LiveJournal to be much older than average, as LiveJournal practically functions as another form of media there -- a way for reporters, intellectuals, and technologists to route around increasing levels of government censorship.
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June 21 2006, 07:26:24 UTC 5 years ago
I have linked to you in this post: http://davidkevin.livejournal.com/22665
I also have you on my Friend-list. If after looking at my journal you wish to reciprocate, cool. If not, I understand, no problem.
June 21 2006, 07:28:06 UTC 5 years ago
I'd like to believe this will get fixed. But I watched delphiforums go from free and "plus" service, to free users get ads, to three different levels, to cutting out the mid-level benefits, to "only plus members can host the full-featured forums, which are now $10/year."
This is how it started... it already had free and paid users, and the free users, instead of just not having the full customizable and picture options, started getting ads. (Theoretically, they were targeted by community; in reality... they were targeted by community *keywords*, which meant that books with those keywords in the title were promoted even if they were totally inimicable to the community itself.)
After the ads, there came an erosion of the mid-level. Not sure what that would be, here... possibly a cluster of new "benefits" that are only available to ad-based accounts and currently paid accounts; permanent users wouldn't get them. Instead of being treated as "uber-paying" customers, they may get bumped to "legacy" status... much lip service, but since they're never paying us again, let's see if we can get them to leave.
Sigh.
Next comes "free communities get the sucky basic features; paid & ad-based comms get these new features..."
I gotta admit, I am not geeky enough to appreciate all of LJ's options. I get along better with some of the newer, simpler interfaces... but that doesn't mean I want them. I liked LJ as a geek haven, a place that needed an invite to get in and some understanding of code to make a journal pretty. I liked that people got screamed at for not using LJ-cuts, and that they got bitched at for not understanding what a friendslock meant. LJ was plenty social, with geeks falling over each other to give advice, but not exactly new-user-friendly: you had to either know code or know how to ask politely to get anything done. I rather wish they'd kept the invite-or-payment system; it kept out the worst of the fluff.
But businesses don't thrive on a lack of fluff. Each sign-up-and-forget-about-it teen is an email in their ad database.
June 21 2006, 08:17:10 UTC 5 years ago
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Their methods of dealing with the userbase and their complete disregard for us has turned me off from ever paying again, and I was for several years. Its rater plain they are not solicting customer loyalty and subscription, so I'm giving them neither.
June 21 2006, 12:41:11 UTC 5 years ago
June 21 2006, 15:36:58 UTC 5 years ago
(TIA) :-)
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June 21 2006, 13:21:12 UTC 5 years ago
-Rikki
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June 21 2006, 19:54:59 UTC 5 years ago
That's incorrect. The petition, though it's admittedly hard to understand given the general incoherence of it, was intended to complain about UI changes made to the service. The direct impetus was that the lj_design community had put up some user info page designs for feedback, and some folks didn't like them.
*After* the petition had been up a while, mostly populated by people who have said they prefer to have no changes at all, the author added in a link to some of the descriptions of Vox. At this time, the speculation and unfounded assertions about the plan for LJ were added, and then the whole thing snowballed in classic LJ Drama style.
The key thing here is, you say, "By my calculations, the average age of a LiveJournal user is approximately 24 years of age". But by the self-reporting of users, as well as third party services that measure demographics of websites, the average age is lower than that. When the petitioner says "I have received PROOF..." etc., what she's actually saying is "Here's my interpretation of some neutral statements of fact". I'm disappointed more people don't read that stuff more critically, but I should be used to that on the web by now.
Anyway, I'm rambling, and I know you're never going to change your opinion about Brad or LJ, it's been pretty consistent for years now. But this petition was mostly people fussing about "OMG new user info!" and then turned into "here's an unfounded assertion, plus will you friend me pls?" and hey, whadaya know, people believe it.
I know you've been around LJ forever, and we've been parts of the same web communities for ages. What I don't get is the relentless negativity -- there's been tons of new features, *actually cool* new hacks that get not only built, but finished and tested and shipped out for regular people to use, over the past year+. Whatever beef you have with individuals, I'd think that'd be something to celebrate.
(Disclaimer, etc.: Yeah, I work at Six Apart, but I'm just speaking for me. Please don't pull something I say out of context and then say it proves how evil Six Apart is.)
June 21 2006, 20:43:49 UTC 5 years ago
Where is there 'incoherency' in my post? I clearly stated facts, listed the changes being made that users feel are 'dumbing down' the site. I then explained what the petition was for, in probably mroe of a professional manner than most individuals would have created ie: 'OMG SIGN PETITION HATE!!! >:O'
I actually don't find this to be ljdrama in nature, whatsoever. My link to the VOX post, in which you state as the drama, is me providing news for the users signing the petition. I did not change the link in any way, shape, or form. I typed what it was about, and what I FELT it was about. Neither do I state anywhere that people should accept everything therein as SOLID proof, just that I backed up my claims with posts and comments from other users.
Another thing: are you stating that I did this only for friends? If that's the case, you're horribly mistaken. I did not expect the petition to grow this big, and I did/do not expect anything out of it for my own selfish needs. I put up the phrase about people being allowed to friend me, mostly for the fact I was getting 10+ friend adds every hour, regardless. I accepted them, and I wanted them to know that I'm very open to my personal life by doing so.
I don't hide secrets. And I'm incredibly dissapointed by your comment, Mr. Dash. I hope this will be cleared up, and I can go back to giving you the respect I feel you deserve; the words I spoke about you 'understanding' what this petition was about.
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June 21 2006, 20:16:46 UTC 5 years ago
Call Six Apart!
Yeah, Petitions are great, and you should go take a look and sign the petition. . . In the meantime, Here's their phone and fax numbers!Six Apart U.S.A. »
548 4th Street, San Francisco, CA 94107 (Map)
Tel: 415 344 0056* - Fax: 415 344 0829
I suggest you call them! Call them right now to discuss the changes being made to LiveJournal and why you oppose them. Be polite, couteous (no profanity) and direct.
June 21 2006, 22:52:12 UTC 5 years ago
Re: Call Six Apart!
i'm on the road a bit, but if i'm not on a plane or whatever, anyone's free to call me on my personal mobile phone at 646-541-5843 if you wanna talk to someone at Six Apart, too.June 21 2006, 21:42:09 UTC 5 years ago
sceptical
I'm sorry but I do feel like the last part of your post feels a bit like doom-mongering.Where's the factual data that SixApart is trying to move the "older" userbase? Sure, they might be launching Vox at a different target audience, but looking at the Vox homepage the phrase "turn-key" stands out the most. To me this could imply a simpler blogging engine than LJ (which has plethora of customisation possibilities). Perhaps it's the end product of merging the technical know-how of livejournal (and it's sizing) with a subset of the professional blogging experience of Typepad/MovableType.
Let's look at the facts:
* some of the customisation options are badly designed/layed out
* you can have banner adds on sponsored accounts (but that's a personal choice)
* the new proposed userinfo is butt-ugly
Those points don't really add up to a dumbing down, at best it shows they need to get a few web-useability experts in.
As for the support, I can't really comment on that because I've never had to use them. I'd like to wait till I see something tangible (though it might be too late then)
June 22 2006, 02:25:27 UTC 5 years ago
Re: sceptical
"I'd like to wait till I see something tangible (though it might be too late then)"Isn't that the whole point?
June 22 2006, 04:20:09 UTC 5 years ago
When it was first announced that ads were going to be available for free accounts, the initial thought for a lot of us was, "Teens are really going to love that." Because for school-aged kids, getting major benefits without having to pay (because mom and dad won't pay for blogging, since they're already paying for everything else) is a big deal. All of the blogs I've come across with ads in them have been younger users, but I confess I've probably only stumbled onto a dozen Sponsored+ accounts since it was launched.
It made sense to find out Vox was being created with an older user in mind. LJ already exists, it's popular, it's easy, and marketing to the younger crowd means users who I suspect do not mind advertisements much. Slap some ads on LJ, market it as a high-class My Space for teens, and send us oldbies over to Vox (with its trendier, more mature name).
I don't know the demographics but I wonder if 'netters over 30 aren't very profitable?
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