Insomnia ([info]insomnia) wrote,
@ 2004-12-21 14:15:00
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What Iraqis want for Christmas...
Riverbend, an Iraqi in Baghdad, made a wishlist for what kinds of things most Iraqis would like for Christmas that's remarkably mundane and sad.

1. 20 liters of gasoline
2. A cylinder of gas for cooking
3. Kerosene for the heaters
4. Those expensive blast-proof windows
5. Landmine detectors
6. Running water
7. Thuraya satellite phones (the mobile phone services are really, really bad of late)
8. Portable diesel generators (for the whole family to enjoy!)
9. Coleman rechargeable flashlight with extra batteries (you can never go wrong with a fancy flashlight)
10. Scented candles (it shows you care- but you're also practical)

In her words:
"I won't list 'peace', 'security' and 'freedom' - Christmas miracles are exclusive to Charles Dickens."

Also, according to one person I know over there, the mobile phone problems are largely intentional...

"After a mortar attack or car bomb or any other security related exercise, the US military shuts down the Iraqna mobile phone network to prevent insurgent coordination and mobile-phone-triggered bombs."

Sounds highly plausible. I hear they're using wireless door bells for detonators now.

(66 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]adudeabides
2004-12-22 12:48 am UTC (link)
Mobile phone and garage door or door bell detonators are quite effectively used for remote detonation. That can be jammed or blocked (by shutting down the phone network), so that's a practice they try to use.

And plans are in place by the current administration to disable some services in the US in the event of "homeland" emergencies. At minimum, GPS. Possibly phone services.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]lonestaryankee
2004-12-22 06:44 pm UTC (link)
you gotta love the patriot act. it's mcarthyism all over again, only this time the "ism" is terroism.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]adudeabides
2004-12-22 09:08 pm UTC (link)
What do you think of the recently-passed law on intel reform?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]lonestaryankee
2004-12-23 08:23 am UTC (link)
can't say i know anything about it (yet). to be honest, i haven't read up much on the patriot act since before i shipped off to this hell hole.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]adudeabides
2004-12-24 09:32 am UTC (link)
Are you over here?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
roger that
[info]lonestaryankee
2004-12-24 10:14 am UTC (link)
i'm based out of paliwoda (in balad), but i'm sitting in limbo right now over at anaconda waiting for a flight to qatar for fmpp.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: roger that
[info]adudeabides
2004-12-25 03:36 am UTC (link)
Qatar - three beers a day. lol
Enjoy. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]nova_starr
2004-12-22 01:04 am UTC (link)
in Riverbend's words: "I won't list 'peace', 'security' and 'freedom' - Christmas miracles are exclusive to Charles Dickens."

well, maybe riverbend should berate the assholes that are participating in the insurgency, rather than the noble men and women of the US military who are risking their lives and sacrificing holidays away from home in order to build them a better life

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]adudeabides
2004-12-22 02:07 am UTC (link)
Do inoble reasons justify a noble goal?

Would you feel the same if Texas came and did to California what we've done to Iraq in the name of a higher purpose? Or would you resent Texans? (I mean, more so than they already are resented)

That's obviously a hypothetical, but you try to look at it from their point of view. I think you'd dislike the Texas National Guard occupation of California despite the fact they had nothing to do with the decision of Texas to "liberate" California.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]nova_starr
2004-12-22 02:26 am UTC (link)
Do inoble reasons justify a noble goal?
in this case, yes.

The hunter thinks that he spent more than enough time "looking at it from their point of view" when he was participating in OIF.

consider it from this angle: if a soup kitchen were blown up by a bunch of homeless people, who's the real asshole? the soup kitchen, for giving homeless people food and some time out of the cold, or the homeless person for blowing it up?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]adudeabides
2004-12-22 02:30 am UTC (link)
The "hunter"?

I don't agree with your analogy, because homeless people don't really have a reason to blow-up a soup kitchen. Not unless the soup kitchen makes things excessively worse somehow. Do the homeless people not like saltines or...?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]nova_starr
2004-12-22 02:37 am UTC (link)
the [info]nova_starr.

homeless people have just as much reason to blow up a soup kitchen as the insurgents have to blow up soldiers in a mess tent.

anyway, the question is moot; the troops in iraq aren't "making things excessively worse somehow", that's just the idea you get from watching too much news. maybe you'd like to ask the kids who get to go to school, or the iraqis that have running water and electricity and cell phones now, who didn't before, whether things are better or worse? or maybe you'd like to ask the ones who aren't dead because they spoke their minds, vice cowering in fear at a megalomaniacal tyrant?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]insomnia
2004-12-22 02:47 am UTC (link)
hunterdane hasn't been stateside watching the news... he's in Iraq. He apparently feels that the US presence there is somewhat less benign than a soup kitchen.

Last time I heard, soup kitchens didn't bomb the crap out of you if you hated the soup and would just assume have the ingredients and make it yourself.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]nova_starr
2004-12-22 02:50 am UTC (link)
last the hunter herd, soldiers don't kill iraqis when they're sitting in a mess hall eating chow.

the iraqis DIDN'T have the ingredients to make the soup themselves -- left to their own devices, saddam and his sons would have ruled for 80 more years.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

[info]adudeabides
2004-12-22 03:02 am UTC (link)
Many in the foreign community feel the Bush administration to be jsut as bad, if not worse, than Saddam for thier actions.

Should they organize a scenario in which they removed the legitamite rulers of America?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:33 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]insomnia, 2004-12-22 03:12 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]insomnia, 2004-12-22 03:33 am UTC (Expand)

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]insomnia, 2004-12-22 04:11 am UTC (Expand)
in which the hunter closes his html tags - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:51 am UTC (Expand)
Re: in which the hunter closes his html tags - [info]insomnia, 2004-12-22 04:18 am UTC (Expand)
Re: in which the hunter closes his html tags - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 05:11 am UTC (Expand)
Re: in which the hunter closes his html tags - [info]insomnia, 2004-12-22 05:40 am UTC (Expand)

[info]adudeabides
2004-12-22 02:31 am UTC (link)
Also, why do inoble reasons justify a noble cause in this case?

That's a dangerous thought-pattern, in my mind.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]nova_starr
2004-12-22 02:40 am UTC (link)
Also, why do inoble reasons justify a noble cause in this case?

because more good is coming out of Iraq than bad at the hands of the US.

noble reasons don't justify an ignoble cause. in this case, the ends justify the means -- because by the endgame, saddam and his regime (and his sonds' regime after that) would have killed more iraqis, tortured more iraqis, starved more iraqis and oppressed more iraqis than the US can on their worst day.

it IS a dangerous thought pattern, to say "the ends justify the means", but only when it's a blanket statement. today, it's not -- the hunter specified: IN THIS CASE.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]adudeabides
2004-12-22 02:52 am UTC (link)
So, it's justified if it's just "in this case"?

What's to stop anyone from using their idea of an end to justify the means on one occassion.

Incidentally, this is not exactly the first time the US has upended a legitimate because they didn't want a particular person in charge. Are we going to say it's justified in every case? Just those cases?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]nova_starr
2004-12-22 02:54 am UTC (link)
the [info]adudeabides is attempting to get the hunter to fall down a slippery slope argument, which he's not going to do. every case in which force is going to be applied has to be identified and analyzed as much in a vacuum as possible.

would the hunter support marching on england because the US government suddenly decided that they didn't like tony blair and wanted him ousted? hell no.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:10 am UTC (Expand)

[info]nova_starr
2004-12-22 02:49 am UTC (link)
what it comes down to is this: if there were an iraqi rebellion a year and a half ago to oust saddam and his regime (the hunter really hates that term, BTW), which ended up today with twice the casualties that the US's actions have, the iraqis who participated in it would be lauded as heroes by the winners and the world wouldn't bat an eye -- because it wwwould have been iraqi on iraqi, and noone cares when an arab cuts another arab's throat. but as soon as the US wades in in an attempt to bring peace, alleviate fear and raise the standard of living, we're bad guys.

don't take that to mean that there is no remorse in the hunter's heart for the iraqis -- and the US servicemembers, the spanish servicemembers, the polish servicemembers, etc -- who have been hurt or killed in the line of this grisly duty. but DO take it to mean that the hunter is tired of seeing the US being villianized as a whole for the shitty things that the media latches onto and reports because it makes the ratings jump.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]adudeabides
2004-12-22 02:58 am UTC (link)
I think it's more a matter of letting people handle their business internally than not caring if an "arab" cuts another "arab's" throat.

No different than the objections to the French helping the Americans in the American revolution. ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]nova_starr
2004-12-22 03:02 am UTC (link)
that's the thing -- the iraqis wouldn't have handled their business.

they were in a situation similar (note the emphasis) to 1980: the iraqis were proles. sure, they had the power to overthrow their oppressors, but they would never have been given the chance to do it. a situation like that can't be solved from within. there has to be at least a catalyst.

in THIS case, a catalyst wasn't even enough. how many iraqi national guards have deserted their posts, already?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:12 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:31 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:38 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]insomnia, 2004-12-22 03:46 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:48 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lonestaryankee, 2004-12-22 07:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]insomnia, 2004-12-22 09:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:46 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:50 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:55 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nova_starr, 2004-12-22 03:59 am UTC (Expand)

[info]nova_starr
2004-12-22 02:52 am UTC (link)
also; the hunter offers apologies for assuming that the [info]adudeabides is "sitting stateside watching news", when he is in fact serving in Iraq. keep your head down, buddy. :\

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]adudeabides
2004-12-22 02:55 am UTC (link)
's ok. [info]insomnia saved me the trouble of figuring out how to mention it without sounding pretentious. lol

My news sources are relatively rounded...commercial, independant, and international news, as well as intel. I like to make somewhat of an effort in forming my opinion.

No harm, no foul, since you don't know me. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]nova_starr
2004-12-22 02:58 am UTC (link)
it wouldn't have been pretentious -- the hunter threw out his service about ten comments ago.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 03:03 am UTC (Expand)
damn - [info]lonestaryankee, 2004-12-22 07:12 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: damn - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-22 09:07 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: damn - [info]lonestaryankee, 2004-12-23 09:00 am UTC (Expand)
Re: damn - [info]adudeabides, 2004-12-24 09:31 am UTC (Expand)

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