Insomnia ([info]insomnia) wrote,
@ 2004-11-23 20:34:00
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Voices from the Ukraine.
I have been in touch with some of the Ukranian LJers, and have additional information to pass along.

Protesters are still in the heart of Kiev, where a tense standoff exists. Soldiers and police forces appear to be split between both sides of the conflict, and some military units have taken position on the outskirts of the city. There are rumors of Russian troops inside Ukraine, located around key buildings, and of threatening Russian troop movements outside the Ukraine. Despite this news, a compromise may be in the works, and there are unsubstantiated rumors that power could be turned over to the opposition tomorrow.

In an atmosphere of government-imposed censorship of the media, the Internet and mobile technology has apparently been a big part of organizing the opposition. Those opposed to the current President are using email, SMS messaging, and the Internet to spread the news about what is going on and get protesters on the streets, even in the middle of a snowy winter.

[info]olivanova says:
"My boss is in Kiev, out in the street and he's saying that everything is very peaceful and calm. Some of the police share the views of opposition and even wear orange bands. Two of the members of the central election committe are making statements about the fraud during elections and asking the rest of the committee not to sign the final document tomorrow. Ukrainian artists have shown amazing support to Yuschenko, spending all their time with the people, cheering them up and showing them the example of civil responsibility. A statement has been made by Yuschenko's partners that Kuchma is willing hand in the power, but will do it tomorrow. People are asked to come tomorrow, but a lot of them will stay for the whole night near the Presidents' Administration building. A lot of people say they should push it to this night, as there should be a reason behind Kuchma's will to postpone the process. I've heard that tomorrow there will be more people coming to support the current regime and it might get bloody...
People who live in Kiev give a lot of support to the Yuschenko's supporters that have come to Kiev - they are giving out food, bringing clothes and blankets, hosting people. A lot of businesses have closed their offices, stores and production to let people participate in protests...
"

[info]taste_of says:
"There were literally hundreds of thousands of people on the streets of the ukrainian capital Kiev today. Tens of thousands will spend this night in tents erected right on the main street of the capital Kreschatik, on the Independence square and at the presidential palace. Many of the LJ users are there whole day or night with their digital cameras and from time to time post new pictures. Some of the people are on the streets with their mobile phones and their friends are posting their messages."



 He also directs people to view some excellent photos of what is going on, located in LJ's [info]2004_vybory_ua , which appears to be the major community for sharing information about the current Ukranian elections on LiveJournal. (Or, as LJ is affectionately called over there, ЖЖ, which translates into ZHZH, short for ZhivoiZhurnal.  (Sexy sweet acronym!)

[info]ukihito says:
"Now most of the people are in front of the President HQ and on the main square. They demand to accept the real choice of the people of Ukraine. Kuchma said that he is willing to negotiate, but only in the morning (it's just after midnight now in Kiev). There is a danger of them to plan some kind of an action to break the force of people who are having their shift at the street camps on Kreschatik and the Square of Independace. Yuschenko supporters don't want to use the force, and are willing to wait until the next morning to start negotiations to let Kuchma hand in the power to Yuschenko. However, this is unlickly to happen as the Head Ballot Office (whatever it's called) has not counted the votes yet and has not signed the official results. The President can be proclaimed only after they do that. This is the situation. It's flying in the air now, I would say. Noone knows what is going to happen next."

[info]vi_z recommends those who read English to check out http://eng.maidanua.org , which is translating news (and rumors...) about what is happening on the fly, thanks to numerous volunteers.



[info]shandor_kam recommends reading these comments on the BBC website for an indication of what Ukranians are thinking about the elections.



Oh... and [info]emdrone says:
"You being a dishonest prick -- what is easy to conclude from your reaction to the Falluja shooting . . . All you wish to hear is new details along the lines of the official Western propaganda."



Believe it or not, he seems to think I'm *not critical enough* of US actions in Iraq, and that all I do is parrot pro-US propaganda. (He also accuses the BBC of censoring his comments, and of being "complete bullshit produced by probably the largest enemy propaganda machine.")

All I can say is my sincere thanks to the ZHZH Ukranians who found time in the midst of their impending civil war to contribute to this post... ;-)  And special thanks to [info]emdrone!  Thanks to him, now I've been accused of being *both* a terrorist sympathizer *AND* a  US propagandist.. It almost feels like being a real journalist!


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[info]dafydd
2004-11-24 05:03 am UTC (link)
What sources of news and opinion do you follow regularly? I'm looking to expand who I read.

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[info]insomnia
2004-11-24 06:36 am UTC (link)
It depends on the subject. Much of what I report lately regarding Iraq or Ukraine, for instance, I get directly from people who are there. Much of the rest I research over at http://news.google.com or just google in general.

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[info]insomnia
2004-11-24 06:40 am UTC (link)
Oh... and as for why I don't mention the weblogs of many of the soldiers over there, it is because I don't want to overexpose them, or get them in trouble.

Everytime an active-duty soldier gets serious attention on something they've written, they inevitably have to either take down or lock down their journals. I feel better sharing when I can, as opposed to promoting their journals and possibly getting them in trouble.

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[info]delfinchik
2004-11-24 06:44 am UTC (link)
Oh come on - Russian troops.... people get carried away so easily...

Most sincerely,
Pirkko, a Finn living in Moscow

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[info]insomnia
2004-11-24 07:06 am UTC (link)
It's not being seen as funny in the United States, apparently... and the sources reporting it include Russian media.

"Eko Moskvy" reported that Russian special forces troops have been airlifted to military bases outside of the Ukrainian capital Kyiv. (Ukranian) Opposition television Channel 5 reported today Russian troops have landed at an airbase near Kyiv and are changing into Ukrainian uniforms...

Ukranian MP Julia Tymoshenko says that many of the guards around the presidential administration building are Russians, and former US Congressman Bob Schaffer, who is witnessing the election, is very concerned.



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[info]insomnia
2004-11-24 07:11 am UTC (link)
I should also make clear that I said "rumors of Russian troops", and that I didn't confirm as yet that there actually are Russian troops in the Ukraine.

That said, there are *certainly* rumors. It's a very hectic situation right now, and it's to be expected that animosities and fears of Russian intervention in Ukraine will be a major issue over the next few days, whether the troops are real or not. Many Ukranians are responding with fear and anger to the thought of Russian intervention. Old wounds and fears die slowly.

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[info]delfinchik
2004-11-24 07:30 am UTC (link)
You are after all talking to a Finn;) I would know a lot about living with and alongside Russia, not less than Ukrainians;)

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[info]delfinchik
2004-11-24 07:12 am UTC (link)
Well Ekho Moskvy would be the only source I would trust of this list.

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[info]insomnia
2004-11-24 07:39 am UTC (link)
Understandable. To tell you the truth, I think that the former US congressman is more concerned about unconfirmed rumors than about something he knows for a fact to be the case.

That said, it is believable to me that Putin might quietly send troops to Ukraine, so long as he believed that he could quietly get them out afterwards. He hasn't exactly been honest with the Russian people about Chechnya or many other things, so I wouldn't count on better behavior when his reputation is on the line.

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[info]delfinchik
2004-11-24 07:54 am UTC (link)
Chechnya is part of Russia, Ukraine is not. There is an international border separating Russia and Ukraine with all the works (border guards, army etc).

And can you find any example in today's world about getting troops out quietly once you get them in (which also is not such a quiet affair when you are talking about international warfare)?;)

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[info]delfinchik
2004-11-24 07:23 am UTC (link)
Can't find any such news on Ekho Moskvy website. There has been absolutely no talk about this in Moscow, and, believe me, this is not a silent totalitarian society.

Russian ZhZh's (ZhivojZhurnal is livejournal in Russian, by the way) are populated to a very large extent by journalists, writes and such people working for different Russian and also foreign mass media - they would write about such a dramatic development.

Russia has been very much involved in Ukraine's affairs but not to the extent of invading it;)

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[info]insomnia
2004-11-24 09:58 am UTC (link)
I did a bit of digging and found out some interesting information...

The article I cited (which I got off of Google news) was not released by a reporter from a news agency, but was infact put out as a press release by a group called Our Ukraine. In fact, several press releases have come out in the past few days in several different languages from Our Ukraine, with statements such as:

Broad Ukranian Coalition Backs Yushchenko
Ukraine Exit Polls: Yushchenko Leads
Ukraine Supporters of Yushchenko Fill Streets


One of the press releases mentions ourukraine.org, which forwards to http://www.razom.org.ua , Yushchenko's website.

Basically, Yushchenko hired a PR firm, The PBN Company, to help "market" his campaign. In the process of doing so, the PBN Company put out press releases to support their cause.

Such press releases don't necessarily require the same degree of truth that you would expect in a journalist's report. It is entirely possible, for instance, that there was a brief mention on Ekho Moskvy where rumors of Russian troops in Ukraine were refuted, but which mentioned rumors of Russian troops being flown into Ukraine. The PR company could decide to "spin" the story and say that Ekho reported Russian troops were in Ukraine.

I wouldn't call this cheating -- it's actually quite a clever and affordable trick to use press releases to help trigger favorable press overseas -- but still, it's not very credible, and depending upon how they spun any report on Ekho, it's not very ethical either.

That said, I don't see that much of a major influence by these press releases in how most news stories cover the issue. I've only seen one or two other news sources pick up this press release and treat it like real news.

So, I guess the question is, how acceptable is it for PR companies -- many of them based in the US or in Western nations -- to take a major role in shaping and marketing political campaigns in countries such as Ukraine or Russia? I guess my answer is that it's fair competition, so long as these companies are fair and don't pick and choose who they will represent for political reasons.

The PBN Company seems to be willing to take money any client who wants to pay... and they're involved in Russian politics too. The International Press Center and Club in Moscow had both President Boris Yeltsin and Vladimir Zhirinovsky as members at one point... and it's owned by PBN.

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[info]olivanova
2004-11-24 07:48 pm UTC (link)
"Our Ukraine" ("Nasha Ukrayina") is in fact a block of parties, leaded by Yuschenko.

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[info]lafinjack
2004-11-24 01:01 pm UTC (link)
Those opposed to the current President are using email, SMS messaging, and the Internet to spread the news about what is going on and get protesters on the streets, even in the middle of a snowy winter.

Isn't that pretty much what happened directly before the fall of the Soviet Union, except without cellphones?

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[info]insomnia
2004-11-24 01:30 pm UTC (link)
Yep! And now they're using LiveJournal too. There are about 12,000 Ukranians who have LiveJournal accounts, and the way they're using LiveJournal communities, commenting, and integration with chat/SMS/email is pretty viral.

Frankly, as the guy who came up with the idea of LiveJournal's communities, I'm pretty happy about it. Gotta love simple/stupid technology.

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[info]solri
2004-11-24 09:12 pm UTC (link)
Just a note to say thanks for your occasional posts on what LJers around the world are saying - I find them very interesting.

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[info]insomnia
2004-11-26 06:35 am UTC (link)
Just read it. While it's true that some US and Western sources have backed the challenger in the election, the US government itself has intentionally sat on the fence. Foriegn aid to corrupt Ukrainian government is at an all-time high, and there is no clear evidence that US government money is manipulating this election. Certainly rich business interests did contribute money, though. In comparison, a huge amount of Russian money has gone to Kuchma's candidate.

Basically, the major concern we all should have is trustworthy elections... and the elections in this case were clearly fraudulent. We should all do the best we can to encourage the most tranparent election process possible, with plenty of international witnesses... and then the Ukranians themselves should decide their future based upon their people's enlightened self-interest.

There's nothing wrong with being pro-Western or pro-Russian to any degree for the Ukranians, so long as it is done with the people's consent and represents their best interest.

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[info]jnietzsche333
2004-11-26 04:32 pm UTC (link)
I'm just curious if you could explain Yuschenko's political philosophy to me in contrast to Yaku...umm...the other guy.

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[info]insomnia
2004-11-27 02:48 am UTC (link)
Yuschenko is basically running as a pro-Western reformer. He accuses the other party of being corrupt -- which, based on the prior president's record, is most likely the case. He also accuses them of being Russian puppets -- they take money from the Russians for their campaign. While he wants to maintain relations with Russia, he also wants Ukraine to develop closer ties to Europe, and become part of the EU and possibly NATO. Many European business leaders support this -- and him -- because they see the possibility of Ukraine being a very inexpensive place to produce goods for the European market. Yuschenko also wants to pull Ukranian troops out of Iraq, albeit in a reasonable, controlled manner, which is a position quite popular with the Ukranian people.

Yakuvich basically wants closer ties to Russia, which is attractive to a significant minority, as there is a large Russian minority in the Ukraine. He also wants to maintain close military and economic ties to Russia. He accuses Yuschenko as being a Western puppet because his money comes from pro-Western businessmen. He also wants to pull troops out of Iraq, but I suspect he wants to do so on a less aggressive time schedule. The outgoing / corrupt president supports him, and gave many of the government workers, coal miners, police, military, etc. BIG raises right before the election.

To a large extent, the conflict is Russian vs. native Ukranian. It is also urban vs. rural and government-controlled industry vs. free market businesses.



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[info]olivanova
2004-11-28 01:05 pm UTC (link)
bbc.co.uk is a very good and well-balanced source of information on what's happening in Ukraine. Devided Ukraine http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4043315.stm gives a pretty good idea about the situation in Ukraine. You have to realize that most of the people voted for Yanukovich because he is Russian-speaking and thus will support Russian language in Ukraine, where close to 40% of population are Russian-speaking. At the same time Yuschenko is regarded as a nationalist, as he has a huge support from radical nationalist parties. As for corruption - 99.9% of politicians in Ukraine *are* corrupt, and some financial interests stand behind Yuschenko, just as well as Yanukovich. Please, don't idealize Yuschenko - he's a better candidate, but it doesn't mean he's perfect.

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