Insomnia ([info]insomnia) wrote,
@ 2002-03-07 04:18:00
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A perspective on LJ Abuse... or flagellations with a wet noodle.
I wrote something up in a thread elsewhere on the topic of LJ Abuse that I thought I should clean up a bit and share with the rest of you.
------

Just as a simple statement of fact, let it be known that LiveJournal Abuse isn't perfect. There, I said it. It sucks sometimes, but it's true.

Part of the problem with LiveJournal Abuse is that we would practically need a court / legal system to sort through a lot of the complex interpersonal crap we deal with in order to reach a higher degree of what one might call justice. Unfortunately, I don't see that as happening anytime soon, primarily because we just don't have the infrastructure, coding, and coordination level to support it. I don't think any web host out there does, even though some of them make some real money and could better afford to put such a system in place. We have to rely entirely on volunteers.

In that sense, the best we can do is just make the policies as fair as possible. With time, new precedents are made and the system gets further refined though. One thing that I am very happy about though is that abuse has many more volunteers than in the past. What this means, long term, is that there will be a greater degree of peer review, which is really important at times.

There are also some deeper psychological factors at work that effect the quality of Abuse decisions. Volunteering for abuse is fairly unrewarding yet necessary work. We have some really good people that give their time to help, but I think there's a real risk of people helping out too much. Maybe a view of my history with the Abuse Team would clarify this statement.

Although I only deal with the most seriously escalated abuse decisions anymore, when the department was first formed, I worked extensively on it. I wrote a lot of the TOS with steve, and Steve and I (often along with Brad) would frequently argue back and forth on particular cases in reaching decisions, researching the law, liability issues, etc. That's what led to the creation of our internal docs on how to interpret the TOS.

I would like to think (and I suspect that managers in the abuse department would back me up on this...) that I was probably the best person that abuse has ever seen at resolving interpersonal disputes. I did things that frankly surprised myself, getting people who were ferociously angry at each other to talk through their issues and even apologize to each other... and some of them are still on each other's friends lists.

Well, over time abuse grew to be a bigger and bigger part of what I worked on, and I had less and less time to deal with each case. It also began to be something I resented - there were lots of people doing bad things (and sometimes blatantly criminal things) to others, and it really, really got to me. It tended to give me a false impression of what LiveJournal was, since I only saw the negative aspects of the site.

The end result was that I had less time to work on each individual case, that I tended to view the people who were reported to abuse as "the enemy" more than I would have liked, and that I was more prone to make quicker and sometimes harsher decisions. I am a pretty introspective person, however... I noticed this happening, and I decided to change the structure for abuse so it was more scalable, and then I walked away from the day-to-day of abuse as much as I could.

For me, this was important. My job is to represent LiveJournal as best and as positively as possible, and that is a really hard thing to do when you are only seeing the dark side of things. Well, people who are working abuse today still have the same issues. The best thing that could possibly happen for abuse would be to have more people stepping forward to help with support, and from there to abuse. (I recommend working in support before doing abuse.) The more volunteers we have, the less rushed or overworked our staff will be. They'll have a better shot at mediating disputes without anyone getting suspended, and they'll make better decisions. Best of all, it will reduce the burnout factor involved.

Abuse generally works in three steps: someone makes a complaint, Abuse sees if there's a violation, and then they do something about it. They don't take kindly to people doing things that might be seen as circumventing decisions or tweaking noses, even if they don't happen on LiveJournal. Nobody gets an account with LiveJournal in the hope that it will better facilitate people harassing them on IM or via email, for instance. The best rule of thumb is to not abuse people, and if you are warned about it, to comply with not only the letter of the decision, but the spirit of it as well.

An ye harm none, do as ye will, essentially. Be conscious of the impact you might have on others or on LiveJournal itself.

Yes, the Abuse Team isn't perfect, but I can't tell you how valuable they are in maintaining some degree of civility out there. Nobody wants to write about their innermost thoughts, just to become a victim of them. If people want things to improve, by all means, they shouldn't just complain about it -- they should get involved. LiveJournal can still use more volunteers and it is only as good as we make it.


(41 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]vyoma
2002-03-07 04:48 am UTC (link)
Geez... no thanks. I don't think I'm cut from the kind of mental cloth to deal with people like that "extinct marsupial" guy all day long. I think I'd last about 20 minutes.

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Re:
[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 04:51 am UTC (link)
Like I said, it's fairly unrewarding work... except when you actually do something that makes a difference. It happens, though.

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[info]vyoma
2002-03-07 04:59 am UTC (link)
You're a better man than I. I had my share of this kind of things years ago, working as a Beneficiary Service Representative for Blue Cross. Most days I'd go home feeling thoroughly crushed. Glad there are people like yourself out there taking care of business.

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[info]malathion
2002-03-07 05:24 am UTC (link)
Here's my beef.

Under normal circumstances, I would be happy to volunteer. First and foremost, I appreciate the service rendered me by LiveJournal, and for that reason I purchased a paid account. Second, I have experience in that area on several other community type sites (chess server, MUD, etc) and I am confident in my ability to mediate and judge and keep a cool head. The problem is that I disagree fundamentally with the way LiveJournal handles abuse. What seems to be the deciding factor is whether someone feels abused or believes they were abused, not whether abuse actually took place. Writing about how you think someones journal sucks in your own journal can get you suspended. Writing materal that disagrees with the party line on racism can get you suspended. Interpreting history in a way that favors those people who have been blacklisted by American history books can get you suspended.

Promoting anorexia, self-mutilation, underage drug use and sexual activity, wont.

Its the whole reason DeadJournal exists. Its not good enough to leave other people alone, as you said - I think you've seriously misinterpreted what is going on. You have to be nice to everyone else, or you risk getting suspended. From that respect, the Abuse committee punishes thought crimminals. Even if I keep it to myself, I can get suspended. They want people to either think the way they want them to think or leave. And I think thats too bad, and I will never support that.

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Re:
[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 06:19 am UTC (link)
Hm. I don't see how some of those things would get someone suspended, myself. As for whether abuse took place, that is why there are docs that specify what is and isn't abuse.

As far as racism, that is a very tricky issue. See this for more details on why racism can be a very dangerous thing for a site like LiveJournal, but other issues are seemingly overlooked.

As for being nice to everyone else, that's not needed. It's how you approach the issue... if you get into seriously personal attacks, then legal issues such as slander and harassment start to pop up.

When it comes down to it, our TOS policies are very similar to everyone elses. If you look at all the big webhosting services, you will find that their TOS policies are very similar. The reason for this is primarily legal and liability related - they are all accountable to the same laws and risks.

As for statements like "They want people to either think the way they want them to think ..." or "Even if I keep it to myself, I can get suspended.", that sounds paranoid to me. They (being the LiveJournal Abuse Team volunteers) just want people to abide by the Terms of Service for the site, which is really what people are agreeing to when they create an account with us anyway. There aren't any sinister motives involved.

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[info]malathion
2002-03-07 08:43 am UTC (link)
Ok. My best example, since I have personal experience with it. I'm not whining to you to get my community unsuspended, I'm just using it as an example since I have all the facts.

[info]badjournal. A community I created to be a sort of antithesis of [info]bestoflj. I stated clearly in the rules that I didnt want it to be a springboard for harassment and that I didnt want the people who were featured to ever know about it. That way, no one would get harassed and no feelings would get hurt.

What ended up happening was that a few people who stumbled upon the community didnt like the idea, so they started telling the people who had their journals reviewed by badjournal. Those people then started complaining to abuse. To my knowledge, no one who was part of the community actually went into the journals and started commenting (I spent a great deal of time checking the journals to see to it that this never happened).

The community was suspended for two reasons:

(1) It was a machine for abuse complaints. No other connection - just the fact that it generated abuse complaints is evidently a good reason to suspend it.
(2) It violated the rule against linking peoples journals against their will.

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I dont think any of this is in line with what you seem to think LJ abuse is for.

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[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 01:22 pm UTC (link)
I wasn't aware of the decision, but that's a real borderline example, since such sites often link to other journals, use people's names, duplicate copyrighted content, etc. Many "worst of the net" sites on the Internet actually have been shut down by webhosts due to numerous complaints. Truth of the matter is that 98% of the abuse decisions out there aren't going to be so questionable, but it's that 2% that everyone hears about... well, that and the 4% of the other cases where the person who was suspended is pissed off and just completely misrepresents the case and doesn't admit to things like stalking others, etc.

Now, ordinarily, such sites aren't as huge an issue on other webhosts, but when you are intrinsically tied together into a larger community like LJ, it's a really, really incendiary thing to do, and yes, it generates a ton of complaints. It would be nice if complaints didn't matter, but they do so long as they mean that people are upset and looking for the smallest violation ("they're using my userpic without permission!").

I guess I would defend the right of such sites to be out there, but that the owners should really think about how they are going to protect people's copyrights (on both pictures and words), their anonymity, etc. The more anonymous and the less personal such attacks are, the less likely such sites are to get in trouble. In general, I think a lot of these issues would be more easily resolved if such sites were hosted outside of the community itself, since they would generate fewer complaints, really.

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[info]malathion
2002-03-07 02:32 pm UTC (link)
really think about how they are going to protect people's copyrights

If I am copying text from their journal to review or satire it, its within fair use. This is something that for some reason almost no-one knows about copyright law and yet its totally vital to the maintenance of the system. If I want to review their journal, I can copy excerpts to support my points without their permission. Hundreds of copyright infringement lawsuits have been dismissed in all 50 states because of people who didnt know about fair use suing someone who wrote a negative review of their book/article/short story/etc etc.

you are intrinsically tied together into a larger community like LJ, it's a really, really incendiary thing to do, and yes, it generates a ton of complaints. It would be nice if complaints didn't matter, but they do so long as they mean that people are upset and looking for the smallest violation ("they're using my userpic without permission!").

So can I or cant I get someones journal suspended just by complaining a lot? Do you think its okay to suspend a journal just because people are complaining about it even if it isnt a TOS violation? Or are you going to renig on the "it doesnt have to be nice" statement? :P

I think a lot of these issues would be more easily resolved if such sites were hosted outside of the community itself, since they would generate fewer complaints, really.

It would be easier for you, yes. For the people who want to use the service, it wouldnt. What you're saying here is that if its controversial, it shouldnt be on LiveJournal. That seems to contradict the spirit of a community. In real life, people dont always get along.

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Re:
[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 03:22 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I am aware of fair use, however fair use is actually a somewhat weak, contraversial thing.

For instance, fair use, by definition, only gives you the right to use excerpts and specifically implies that you can only use the most minimal amounts of someone's copyrighted content... enough to make your point, basically.

Also, the fair use defense doesn't erase a person's right to privacy, and privacy is a difficult issue in itself. Celebrities and public figures, for example, have a lesser presumed right to privacy than orinary people, who actually have some very substantial rights to privacy. Right now, millions of people in the world have websites. Just the act of having a website does not, in itself, negate one's right to privacy, and there are some very complex (and unresolved) legal issues out there on the Internet. For example, does a person have a right to put copyrighted, personal material on their own website? If so, do others have a right to put the same material on theirs? What if it violates their rights to privacy or their copyrights?

I guess the way I would best describe this scenario is this way: Imagine you are watching television and you see a picture of Oprah... and the commentator said. "Man, does that Oprah Winfrey have a fat ass or what?!"

Now, imagine the same scenario, only this time they put up a picture of Becky Hegland in Nowheresville, GA and they said the same thing.

In the first case, it's not actionable. In the second case, it's a $500,000 lawsuit.

That same kind of privacy law applies currently to web sites; we just don't think of it that way.

As for getting a journal suspended, it always should take a TOS violation of some sort. I'm just saying that it is a lot easier for minor TOS violations to lead to a journal's suspension if you get dozens of complaints about the same violation, in the same way that if you had a ton of lawsuits against a company, sooner or later one of them will win.

As for my comment about having sites hosted off of LiveJournal, it isn't that it would be easier for me personally, but that it would be easier for LiveJournal. (i.e. It would lessen LiveJournal's liability risk.) If we create an environment that could be seen as promoting slander, invasion of privacy, etc... we have a higher risk of being held responsible, either criminally, legally, or financially.

Basically, this is a lawsuit happy world. That is why liability is such a big issue, because companies can (and do) get sued for just about anything, and the decisions that are made are anything but uniform. LiveJournal isn't rich, and one good lawsuit could shut LJ down permanently, which is a big part of the reason why LJ has certain policies.

Lately, the world has been more sue crazy than ever, and the leaders of this country seem to want to crack down on the "dangers" of the Internet. If we want to keep the party going, sometimes we have to turn the volume down a notch. Essentially, that's what we do, but we think the party is worth it.

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[info]malathion
2002-03-07 04:54 pm UTC (link)
Now, imagine the same scenario, only this time they put up a picture of Becky Hegland in Nowheresville, GA and they said the same thing.

The analogy applies, but only to a limited extent in my opinion. Its totally inappropriate to apply the logic of a judicial system that is, as you put it, "sue crazy" to LiveJournal and assume that because it is a "sueable" offense U.S. court that it should be abuse in the United States. That, and there is a HUGE difference between posting in a private community and making the comment on national television. Its not like we were sending badjournal posts to all LJ users through email spam.

As for my comment about having sites hosted off of LiveJournal, it isn't that it would be easier for me personally, but that it would be easier for LiveJournal.

Yeah. Thats what I meant. As I was writing it, I thought it would be unclear, but couldnt think of a better way to put it at the time. I wish we were speaking some other language that has a distinction between second person singular and plural. :P Maybe we should all just start saying "yous" or something.

LiveJournal isn't rich, and one good lawsuit could shut LJ down permanently, which is a big part of the reason why LJ has certain policies

While we're on the topic, do you think badjournal could have gotten Livejournal sued? I doubt you would have even needed a lawyer to get the case dismissed in that one. You could represent yourself and say that the user is sueing you because he isnt satisfied with a service he received for free, complete with no guarantees.

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Re:
[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 07:08 pm UTC (link)
Frankly, most potential lawsuits against LiveJournal would be unsuccessful, irregardless. That is because we have a good TOS and we do a good job of enforcing it.

A TOS is a double-edged sword though. If you have a TOS but it can be reasonably shown that you failed to properly enforce it, the liability goes up.

The ultimate problem with your argument is assuming that winning in court is enough in itself. The truth is, you can win every case against you and still get sued to death.

The moment that you get a lawsuit against your business, the lawyer that you have goes to work and the meter starts ticking... it doesn't matter whether the case is valid or not. That is why most cases never go to court, but are settled out of court. Even if you suspect that your business would win in court, the costs of going to court might make settling the case the preferable alternative. This also explains why there are so many frivilous lawsuits out there. People in this country make money off of frivilous lawsuits everyday... we just don't see it most of the time, because of the confidential nature of the settlements.

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[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 07:09 pm UTC (link)
I should say "most potential lawsuits against LiveJournal would be unsuccessful if they went to court, irregardless."

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[info]malathion
2002-03-07 07:32 pm UTC (link)
Step 2: Rationalize why DeadJournal hasnt been sued.

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Re:
[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 09:10 pm UTC (link)
Main reason that DeadJournal hasn't been sued? They also have an abuse department, and it also does its job, delivering decisions that are somewhat similar to ours. That and it's statistically unlikely, just like fire, flood, etc. That doesn't remove the risk, however... it just decreases it.

Frankly, I know what DeadJournal can be like, and I'm glad we're not them.

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[info]leora
2002-03-19 05:20 pm UTC (link)
Two brief comments -

as an active abuse team member, we do not suspend journals just because they generate complaints. There are a bunch of journals that regularly generate complaints, have been carefully looked into, and been determined to be acceptable.

Second, as a LiveJournal user - before I signed up for an account I read the Terms of Service and decided if I could accept them. I liked parts of it, didn't like other parts, but decided that overall, I could live with it. Nothing I've seen in the abuse team goes against that initital decision - we really try to go by the Terms of Service. If you don't like the Terms of Service, you should have decided that ~before~ you got your account.

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[info]malathion
2002-03-19 06:11 pm UTC (link)
1: Then what differentiates ~badjournal from ~bestoflj?

2: I'm not saying that the people who put the work into making LiveJournal dont have the authority to do whatever they want. I'm saying abuse should not exercise its power the way it does, because in my experience it has often made unfair decisions.

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[info]malathion
2002-03-07 08:52 am UTC (link)
Second comment since this is a different issue - on racism. I'm very sorry that freedom of speech doesnt exist in Germany. I agree that it wouldnt be cool if LiveJournal got firewalled by all the German ISPs or something. If LiveJournal only bans National Socialist content then I think I can accept that, but I very sincerely doubt it. If you say thats policy, I'll take your word for it until I get a counterexample.

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[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 01:00 pm UTC (link)
As far as racism, first off, we aren't just talking about Germany... we're talking about France and most of the rest of Europe, about Israel, etc.

I'm only personally aware of a few sites banned for racism that weren't espousing either nazi or neonazi/white surpremicist ideas... there was one espousing violence against Arab Americans after 9-11 and one out of New Zealand which espoused hatred and violence against Aborigines. New Zealand, btw, have their own laws regarding such things, too. Lots of places do, really.

Personally, I suspect that some degree of neonazism does happen on LiveJournal that we aren't aware of, but it happens in friends only posts between trusted circles. In such cases, we don't take action if we don't know about it, so as long as we don't hear about it and its not reported, then who's to know?! If we heard about such things, though, it wouldn't be any different than if we heard about a "friends only" group for exchanging child pornography... as soon as we know, our liability goes up considerably if we don't act.

That's another big issue with any site that seriously espouses violence against a whole class of people - if violence does happen, we're liable. If we had someone advocating blowing up abortion clinics and giving out doctor's names and home addresses, for example, we'd have to act... people have died that way before. That is why we are still reviewing the whole pro-ana issue too. Is it any different than a dieting site or a pro-smoker site? Not sure. However, Yahoo recently decided to remove pro-ana communities and sites.

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[info]malathion
2002-03-07 02:35 pm UTC (link)
I'm taking this on a tangent a bit: If a minor views pornographic content in a livejournal community (there are several extremely popular communities whose themes are borderline to extremely pornographic) are you liable?

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Re:
[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 02:48 pm UTC (link)
Depends. First off, anyone who creates a journal is responsible for the content on it... they hold the most liability. In their case "Does the community make an attempt to warn off minors?" is really the answer for them. If they can be shown to have taken reasonable steps to dissuade minors from participating in the community, that is adequate in most cases to cover their liability.

Our liability is dependent on whether we act on reported abuse primarily, or create an environment that could be seen to be one that inherently supports or invites criminal / irresponsible behavior.

The biggest issue for us, as you might expect, is child pornography. That is why our biggest efforts are to make sure that community owners know that having minors post nude pictures of themselves is wrong. We expect them to deal with such postings and to change their policies appropriately if we receive complaints.

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[info]malathion
2002-03-07 04:57 pm UTC (link)
How about if, hypothetically, someone were posting her fictional stories about father-(underaged)daughter sex in her journal? No real child abuse going on here..

Borderline? The journal was suspended.

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Re:
[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 06:53 pm UTC (link)
This certainly can be a borderline case, depending upon the situation. If LiveJournal staff doesn't know for certain that it is a fictional account, then that obviously complicates the case.

There are also issues of what the writing actually is. Is it intended to arouse the reader with thoughts of sex, and with a father-child scenario? Do we know whether this is fictional or not? Do we care if it serves essentially the same purpose? In other words, will it attract potential predators, and perhaps communities of people sharing child erotica... or worse? Will it encourage people to view the act of child molestation as something acceptable and sexy?

We don't create the laws or dictate the decisions of courts, but in order to abide by the laws and reduce our risks, we have to take both into account. Above all, we have to consider the safety of the people who use LiveJournal. It isn't our job to make LiveJournal a friendly gathering place for pediophiles, and we are in no means obligated to assume the possible legal and/or criminal risks of "protecting their rights".

We expect such people (like all other LiveJournal users) to use our service responsibly. That means that they must be accountable for their actions. If they really want to be certain that they are truely accountable for their actions, they have the option of setting up their own LiveJournal Server and assuming all legal and criminal responsibilities themselves.

In other words, we are all for protecting people's rights, so long as they don't expect us be accountable and liable for their acts.

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[info]malathion
2002-03-07 07:30 pm UTC (link)
I didnt say anything about the girl being underaged.

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[info]jillw
2002-03-25 02:30 pm UTC (link)
Yes you did. In the link http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=insomnia&itemid=151498&thread=772042#t772042, you state (underaged). Which is the same link, insomnia was referring too.

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[info]malathion
2002-03-26 06:47 am UTC (link)
My bad. That was unclear - I was intending to ask whether it made a difference. In the journal that was suspended, there was no indication made about the girl's age.

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Re:
[info]jillw
2002-03-26 07:26 am UTC (link)
Ah. I see.

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re: Serport Riquest #666
[info]antihope
2002-03-07 06:49 am UTC (link)
I really like doing LJ support - when I have time (which isn't at this very moment).. It sometimes seems to take forever to get anywhere. Your post makes it sound like it's fast and easy to work on Abuse (or that you can get there w/o doing support stuff). It took me a while to get my first support point, and at 192, I *still* don't have any privs.. heh.

I like the community feel of it, and I can really understand why you would get burnt out by it. Hell, I'm burnt out of the "Haw du i valumeate my acoant?" questions that pop up. And on those rare times that I can see an abuse report before it is sent there, it seems pretty bizarre. I see some of the comments people leave in other people's journals. People really can suck, and I can imagine what kinda stuff abuse has to go through on a regular basis.

Kudos to you for doing everything that you've done to make LiveJournal r0x0r!

=o)

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Re: re: Serport Riquest #666
[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 07:03 am UTC (link)
Naah. Nothing fast and easy about it, but there have been some with a fair amount of time who have just ripped into it and have moved up (and into abuse) quite quickly. It depends, basically. Still, every bit of assistance helps reduce the overall burden level, so even if someone can help just a bit, it is probably giving someone else with more experience a bit more time to concentrate on abuse issues.

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Re: re: Serport Riquest #666
[info]antihope
2002-03-07 07:39 am UTC (link)
Wowzas... I was sickik (Re: re: Serport Riquest #666).. This thread number is: http://www.livejournal.com/talkpost.bml?journal=insomnia&replyto=766666

But, anyhow.. Yeah, I figure all the minor support stuff is fine for people that don't know much (validation, codes, etc.). When I have a little bit of time, I try to answer the questions that don't have decent answers yet (i get them via the support e-mail glitch - which I am grateful for..)

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[info]debgirl001
2002-03-07 12:42 pm UTC (link)
i SWEAR as soon as free time is had i'll get back into abuse...

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[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 01:27 pm UTC (link)
No rush, you know. I'm just so tickled to hear that after all the pain you've gone through, that life goes on... and tell that potential love of your life to start acting more like a typical guy -- he's breaking "the code" and making the rest of us look bad in comparison. We might have to revoke his union card! ;->

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[info]saint_monkey
2002-03-07 01:35 pm UTC (link)
how can i start? he asks cautiously... (then i'll see if i have time)

(three years experience cs-support "specialist" at amazon.com, a year at microsoft techsupport cs and a year and a half as abuse handler for the now defunct web community planetall.com.)

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[info]saint_monkey
2002-03-07 01:37 pm UTC (link)
oh, and what perks can be had, (aside from the joy of helping your fellow man?) because i know about four or five other ex-cs'ers laid off by amazon that are semi-unemployed right now, and might welcome the challenge, if the perks are good.

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Re:
[info]insomnia
2002-03-07 01:43 pm UTC (link)
hm... there aren't a lot of perks, really. It's a volunteer thing. The biggest perk is all the people you meet, really...

Some of our most active volunteers have free accounts, however, and we are looking into other incentives as well.

I would send an email to opiummmm@livejournal.com, as he could give you a really good introduction and rundown on the abuse department and how to get started.

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just a side note.. I like the entry itself.
[info]you_wait_4_me
2002-03-09 05:17 pm UTC (link)
After a lengthy debate today I took a few steps back to see if the individual behind the choice today was fair, and what I have come up with is this. I might not agree, but that is my choice. I think you were fair in your decision although I might not understand it. I was once willing to join abuse and help out. I have done my part with userpics and iconrequests and have been doing layouts for fellow members. I am going to write to the name above and talk about joining the abuse team. I am hopefull that I will gain a persepctive to the decision making and the choices that abuse makes and can understand more. And I promise not to suspend her account if I do "get allowed" to join! ( HA HA)

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[info]jillw
2002-03-19 06:31 pm UTC (link)
I've been waiting to join for a while. I'm still just waiting for someone to give me the official word and "invite" me to join. Tommy has my email app. When you need me, let me know. I have time to kill. Lots of it.

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Re:
[info]insomnia
2002-03-20 03:57 am UTC (link)
I sent Tommy an email, asking him to follow up on your request.

m.

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Re:
[info]jillw
2002-03-20 01:06 pm UTC (link)
Wow. Thanks. I think they are just waiting until they get the ones they have now trained. I will be out of town for a week on vacation, but I should have access to my email. However, this will likely be the only vacation I take all year, so I will have plenty of time to follow up on it when I return. If he wants to email me before then, that would be fine as well. I don't want him to feel like he's pushed into accepting me. ;-)

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a question
[info]scientaestubiqu
2002-03-20 04:47 am UTC (link)
what is the point behind not linking without permission?

I'm not having a go, I just don't understand it, as it's not a normal internet thing...

I think I remember a court case being thrown out with that as the reasoning...

so I was curious whether it's a legal matter, or just easier in terms of not having to quibble over details...?

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Re: a question
[info]insomnia
2002-03-20 11:30 am UTC (link)
The right to link is debatable, and there have been several decisions either way, depending upon the circumstances. It's mostly a harassment issue more than anything else... and those are really the issues that are forwarded our way regarding such links.

There have been cases in the past, for instance, where people would anonymously leak extremely personal or slanderous information, then link directly to someone... or cases where others would try to point to certain users, inciting others to abuse them, etc.

Basically, the right to link to someone else doesn't invalidate their other rights, such as their right to privacy or to not be abused by others. If someone indicates to abuse that they are being linked to in a way that they (probably quite correctly) take offense to, then if it is serious enough, we ask the other party in question to remove the link.

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Re: a question
[info]scientaestubiqu
2002-03-20 05:39 pm UTC (link)
oh okay, that makes a lot of sense... :o)

I thought it was just linking across the board...

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